Announcement + AMA: Dungeon Scrawl is now part of the Roll20 Family!

This looks awesome Andrew, and I look forward to seeing the integration realized. Some things that I think would be amazing: Dungeonscrawl essentially knows where it's walls/doors/windows, etc are. Have the map imports automatically set up DL elements for those (especially when building the map on the fly in Roll20) Open the dungeonscrawl integration to the API. I can imagine APIs that randomly generate maps using dungeon scrawl.

That's exciting news - it will be very useful to have a map editor as part of Roll20. I have a couple of questions: 1. Will Roll20 accounts automatically give access to Dungeonscrawl? 2. Will maps in Dungeonscrawl add dynamic lighting boundaries? 3. How will the map editor be integrated into the Roll20 UI? Ideas: 1. Random or automatic dungeon generation.

Will the paid tier of Dungeonscrawl be rolled into Roll20 Pro subscriptions, or will it remain separate?

Andrew - this is a fantastic... but uh... very BIG direction to be opening up.  In my game on Monday I needed EXACTLY this to expand a map. Doesn't that always happen? You find a great map, put some monsters on it... and your players immediately try to run OFF THE MAP. This is the solution to that. (As well as an option to expand the size of the page while keeping the current content in the CENTER, instead of only growing to the right and down. Something like Grow Page _x_ Spaces in each direction.) This will allow GMs to whip stuff up on the fly that we are currently doing with just lines or drawing on the VTT. There are actually two different use cases here, which might call for different interfaces. 1. "Oh crap. My players did something unexpected and I need to whip something up on the fly!" 2. "Let me quickly build awesome maps in the VTT, out of game." Obviously, scenario 1 is asking for ease of use, and speed to get to the 80% solution. Scenario 2 is more about offering options and the power to give people precisely what they want. But I 100% believe this kind of in-engine map editing is essential to the long term steady state toolset of the best possible VTT. So I'm excited to see you guys cracking the door on this. - John Pettus

Marty M. said: Will the paid tier of Dungeonscrawl be rolled into Roll20 Pro subscriptions, or will it remain separate? Hello ! I have exactly the same question . Very good news by the way :)

I suppose it's good news, but what poor communication... I spent 10 min trying to figure out how it was integrated into Roll20 before realizing, from reading the comments, that it wasn't yet. Basically, you've bought the company and you're going to integrate it later into roll20, right? Why don't you just write it down :-( And I don't understand in the video how other players see the map you create. I assume you're actually broadcasting it via another application that has nothing to do with Roll20. Why don't you explain this?  You have to watch the video to get the explanation at the very last minute. I'm sorry to be rude, but it annoys me to receive an e-mail with a click bait title and to lose 10 minutes before understanding what it's really about. This is great news, but please make an effort on the way you communicate.

This is awesome news!  In the interest of crawl/walk/run,  can we have SSO first so Pro Roll20 users get a Pro Dungeon Scrawl account :-)

It looks like this is essentially allowing dungeonscrawl maps to be exported and then imported into Roll20, but all of the creation would still be done with dungeonscrawl. Is that correct?

So I read the email and it seems like it's already implemented but it isn't.  I mean it's cool but please don't do this kind of marketing baiting people

Fascinating news out of the blue! I am very curious to see where this will go. Best of wishes for the developers for making this a truly useful tool.

I'm unfamiliar with Dungeon Scrawl so excuse my question. Would a GM be able to use this to build out a (large?) dungeon ahead of bringing a group together for a game session?

What are the steps a (Pro) Roll20 user/DM who has never used Dungeonscrawl can get started and integrating into their existing games?  Thanks.

PHENOMEMENOL  This is so excellent! This looks incredible

Quetion is; how much is it gonna cost us?!? o.O

Is the intention to ultimately provide live map-as-you-go service during a session?

Aawww man a friend pointed me to the tiktok of the announcement then I can here in high hopes. Seems there is nothing but the announcement yet. Still very hyped about the addition and ofc liking the sound of everything, but might anyone know a ETA? at least for some barebones features? I do understand that full implementations might take quite some time, but was curious if anything like beta limited stuff would be released.

Absolutely love this, and would be really awesome to see some inclusion of the lighting mechanic as well! I could see some really intense moments being created using this style of map-building already, but add in the lighting mechanic and I could see even more interesting things happening.

Incredible news. Especially if there's going to be a connection with creating dynamic lighting walls/doors/etc.

Is there anywhere to get more detailed manuals/instructions? The Roll20 help pages are missing A LOT of information, like anything to do with layers. I tried recreating an old map of mine and almost immediately ran into a wall of frustrating issues that seem  like they should be fairly simple to work through but have so far proved intractable and incredibly frustrating. At this point, I'm not sure where to even begin trying to figure them out.

This will make an awesome addition to Roll20! There are so many times players go the exact opposite direction you planned out and you have to make things up on the fly! I can't wait to see it fully integrated!

Excellent addition. I love functionality that supports improvisational gameplay.

Congrats on the update! "This combination of map making tool and VTT will be the first of its kind." I'm not sure how you can make these kind of claims though. Other VTTs have had live map building functionality for years.

This looks fantastic. I am hoping that it will eventually generate dynamic lighting automatically.

I wasn't aware of DungeonScrawl before, but I like the old-school look of the maps.  And the idea of doing real-time mapping (which today I sometimes do, badly, with drawing tools), is really incredible.  Looking forward to seeing how this plays out. My big question would be: how does something open-ended like this play with Roll20's historic limits on map size?  The maps in the video are clearly larger than the recommended 50x50 maximum.  And real-time dungeon crawling isn't likely to do a good job of filling a small map, it's going to need room to sprawl.  So, what are the plans there?

It's a brilliant combination of tools. A little disappointed to read that DS is "part of" Roll20 but not going to be integrated for a while. Confusing "read the small print" messaging. What I absolutely want to see is the ability to dungeonscrawl directly onto a Roll20 page. That's the gold standard you should be shooting for.

It's good news and all but it won't be the first time map-making is integrated directly into a VTT. It's already present in The RPG Engine (available on Steam) which even does it in 3D. It's a great addition, though, and I'm looking forward to it. 

yeah cool....-ish ? The "old school" description is perfectly right....

I cannot speak for the Devs, but my guess is that the "part of" Roll20 is "part of" the Roll20 company/family, even if it is not yet "part of" the Roll20 VTT.  For awhile now Roll20 has been making moves to expand beyond just a VTT, as evidenced by the various names at the bottom of this page (such as DriveThru). 

Gauss said: For awhile now Roll20 has been making moves to expand beyond just a VTT, as evidenced by the various names at the bottom of this page (such as DriveThru).  If it allows using external products bought on drivethru without affecting your quota on roll20 OR having to buy them AGAIN just to use them is a good thing and a great addition for everyone. BUT this "offer" is still really limited and there is so much more on Drivethru that - if one wants to use it - need to be uploaded the old way... ... ... So I would call it partnership, cause that is what it is... you can still use things you buy elsewhere on other VTTs / Platforms etc. It would be great IF other than Drivethru Dungeonscrawl is fully integrated in Roll20 in a way that you can build Dungeon Maps IN ROLL20 on the fly! And MAYBE with this have more Layers to work with than we have now! (Multiple Map Layers etc.) I see the potential, but I also see the risk!

This is a fantastic announcement. I love the simplicity of the dungeon scrawl and I really hope to be able to use it in roll20 game rather than having to make the map then export it to Roll20. I hope it will be possible to build maps with the players watching as per your demo video but within the roll20 game. I also really want to make use of the millions of tokens and map assets I have on roll20 and offline. I find it very clunky to use assets from great artists like Gabriel Pickard and build maps using those - being able to draw the map using an artitsts style would be awesome and of course select from all the tokens and other assets I get from them.  I dont expect this all at once but I hope it wont take too long to deliver. Great news! Keep it coming Roll20!

Just remember to that to the vast majority of your 10+ Million users, Roll20 *is* the VTT, and the VTT only.  That's what we use, and that's always where we'll want to see the improvement.

Teller said: Just remember to that to the vast majority of your 10+ Million users, Roll20 *is* the VTT, and the VTT only.  That's what we use, and that's always where we'll want to see the improvement. Agreed. It may be time for the company to get a different name, one that can encompass a bunch of products...think how Facebook became Meta and Meta has Facebook, Instagram, etc. Right now, the name Roll20 = the Roll20 VTT.

This is quite an intriguing development and I'm looking forward to learning more.  You have my attention!  *thumbs up*

I am assuming this is using some sort of SVG engine to run things. Personally, I would like to see Roll20 tokens, lighting and player control aspects, layered onto this SVG engine...rather than just limiting the dungeonscrawl integretation to just creating Roll20 background maps as images. This would be some real powerful stuff and not something I think any other VTT is attempting at the moment (as far as I know), even with what "The RPG Engine" is trying. Also, adding some support on the dungeonscrawl images and such...for modern and future locales and mapmaking, and even just buildings in general.

Andrew Searles said: Hey Drloser, To be clear, we when I say that Dungeon Scrawl is a part of Roll20, I'm talking about the company's becoming one. I do not mean that Dungeon Scrawl is integrated with the VTT. I'm sorry for that miscommunication. We ARE looking to go in that direction and this combining of forces will lead us there. Unfortunately, at this time, I can't say exactly when we'll be able to get there but it is the direction we're headed. In the meantime, I'm looking to continue to improve on the work that Dungeon Scrawl has done as a stand-alone tool. To me there's a big difference between Dungeon Scrawl has joined the Roll20 Family / company, versus Dungeon Scrawl is now part of Roll20 (the VTT). I think the headline and tweets about this are continuing to be confusing and (perhaps unintentionally, but certainly not unknowingly now) misleading at this very moment. It's not just me, my Discord group has had a conversation about this over this weekend, and I will need to go back and inform them of the correction from this thread.  Good luck on rewording the marketing for this & eventually moving towards what was implied to already exist! Fortunately Roll20 forum does accommodate editing Titles if you decide to make a clarification.  This looks likely to eventually become very exciting in the murky foggy unannounced future! Congrats to the 2 companies.  Some great points up-thread were asked: Can Page Size (of Roll20 the VTT) expand Left and Up, or out-from the center, instead of only expanding maps to the South East? Can Page Size (of Roll20, the VTT) accommodate the larger areas of Dungeon Scrawl mapping?

Brian T. said: I am assuming this is using some sort of SVG engine to run things. Personally, I would like to see Roll20 tokens, lighting and player control aspects, layered onto this SVG engine...rather than just limiting the dungeonscrawl integretation to just creating Roll20 background maps as images. This would be some real powerful stuff and not something I think any other VTT is attempting at the moment (as far as I know), even with what "The RPG Engine" is trying. Also, adding some support on the dungeonscrawl images and such...for modern and future locales and mapmaking, and even just buildings in general. Actually, one of the major competitors has a module that does exactly this, allows collaborative dungeon drawing (meaning the players can help), and it adds dynamic lighting immediately. It's not part of the "core" functionality of the VTT itself, but is available for free. I used it for a Wicked Ones game I was going to be running. Roll20 really needs to jump on this integration sooner rather than later, as I feel they are being outpaced by the competition in many ways. And because I know others could take this the wrong way...I really want to see Roll20 succeed, I just think they need to figure out a way to reduce their technical debt and increase the pace of development while keeping things reasonable for the end users. That's a lot of balls to juggle, but...I'm seeing so much stuff from the competition and honestly, I'm using R20 less and less because of it.

Let's go!

I have very high expectations for this feature.  This is a good idea as long as dynamic lighting lines are automatically added to the VTT on the dynamic lighting layer without any work by the user.  Otherwise, I can make    far better maps instantly in other apps with the same import/export capability, making this entire venture just another pipe dream like the Roll20 audio/video chat. I don't mean to be a spoil sport, but additional layers would be much more useful than this feature and should be the main focus of development at this time.  What do I mean "additional layers"? You know what I mean.

Gargamond said: ... just another pipe dream like the Roll20 audio/video chat. Hey Gargamond! Have you tried the Roll20 audio/video chat in the last year or two? The latest code runs pretty flawlessly. We have been using it exclusively while playing for a long time now. It really is smooth and painless. At least for our size group (five users). We even used it recently just for the A/V when we were having problems on Discord, which was a first!

I was also a little disappointed to realize that "Dungeonscrawl is now part of Roll20" meant a company merger, rather than functionality. I'm enthused to see how it plays out, and I don't envy you the task of integrating this new type of map drawing into the existing map drawing tools in the VTT. My expectation is either that it will be an optional/alternative tool that the user can select when creating a new map (akin to the dynamic lighting), or that some aspects of the toolset (such as automatically connecting drawn spaces and painting in floor grids) will replace/augment the existing drawing tools. Dungeonscrawl is a great service, combining several really great tools, which I have used to easily draw dungeon maps for years. But the tools (such as automatically connecting drawn spaces, drawing terrain features like doors and stairs, drawing in a set type of floor) are more interesting than the full service, because dungeonscrawl as it is today is really well-suited for drawing fantasy dungeons, and not much else. If you are drawing outdoor maps you can paint the ground with different colors to suggest different terrain types (which is great, I'll admit), but you need to have all of it enclosed with walls. It feels like a dungeon. If you want to draw the interior of a building...it looks like a fantasy dungeon. When I've made maps that are spires of rock that you must jump across, maps of the deck of a ship, and maps of a space station...well, I've used the regular roll20 drawing tools for those, because the output of that feels WAY less like an underground location. Again, I LOVE dungeonscrawl and have used it for years, but as it is now, it's dedicated to producing a very specific type of map. Andrew Searles said: Hey Ken, Thanks for this question. Ken S. said: My big question would be: how does something open-ended like this play with Roll20's historic limits on map size?  The maps in the video are clearly larger than the recommended 50x50 maximum.  And real-time dungeon crawling isn't likely to do a good job of filling a small map, it's going to need room to sprawl.  So, what are the plans there? The primary reason for those limits is performance. You CAN make a bigger map if you want. The biggest thing that leads to performance problems is high-resolution images. For now, while we're not integrated with the VTT, this will still be a problem, BUT, when we do integrate, it won't be! Dungeon Scrawl procedurally generates these maps and doesn't use any images to create the base map styles. That means it's lightning-fast. We're still not 100% sure how we're going to integrate it into the VTT, but we know we want to take advantage of this light weight solution. I hope that answers your question. Thanks for asking! As I wrote, I've been using dungeonscrawl regularly to make maps for various fantasy RPGs that I've run here on roll20 for the past three and a half years. I make the map, I export it, I import it into roll20, and if I feel like it, I draw in some of the walls (and this year, doors and windows!) in the dynamic lighting layer. That's all to say that the dungeonscrawl maps are small enough is size and simple enough in resolution to not tax the system, even with 100 square x 100 square maps. Now, it must be said that that's kind of meaningless, since the dimensions of the dungeonscrawl map doesn't really matter. Since the dungeonscrawl maps all have grids drawn in, I turn OFF the grid in roll20, then size the imported image to fit in the available space (I rarely go over 60x60 in roll20) and the tokens to match. If you've ever imported an image with a grid, you know how it is nearly impossible to get the image grid to line up with the roll20 grid. I gave up trying to get them to match after the tenth map or so. Anyway, I hope that's encouraging.

I've been saying to everyone over the last few months: my ideal VTT would be Dungeonscrawl + Inkarnate with multi-user support. So this is GREAT news to me, and I hope that Roll20 utilizes the DS UI for drawing. Btw, I'm a GM. I took a look at the new WotC VTT and my feeling is that where it fails is that it's selling its vision to players , not GMs (DMs in this case), and the latter are the audience who are going to drive the adoption of your platform. A player can show up saying "I want to use Brand-X VTT," but if the GM balks, ultimately the group will not adopt it. WotC doesn't understand its market. I mean, they've made that clear over the last year, but this really hammers it home. Anyway, I think that Roll20 is the best platform for GMs who are running random systems with plenty of house rules, but it could be a lot  better. This is potentially a big step in the right direction.  Roll20:  Please understand your audience and the value of what you're partnering with. You can win this, and positively affect the evolution of TTRPGs. If you make the right moves, you will have my axe 4 life! (PS: Roll20: Buy-out Inkarnate next. Then you will be the unstoppable juggernaut that haunts WotC's nightmares. And don't just buy these properties; the developers have a lot to teach you about UX.)